An Interview with
Bassist of 'Last In Line' (formerly of Ozzy Osbourne, Vince Neil & more)
that took place on Wednesday 6th March, 2019.
Interviewed by Glenn Milligan.
Glenn: Hi it's Glenn from Metalliville, how are you doing Phil?
Phil: Hi, I'm doing well thank you. And how are you?
Glenn: I'm good mate. You've got the Last In Line 'II' album out that I've been playing over the last couple of days. I have enjoyed listening to it. How long did it take you to record that album?
Phil: We started writing it back at the beginning of last year. We first started getting together with writing ideas even before then. It wasn't until about April last year that we went into the studio and started recording. We did some stuff probably October/November the year before. Then we did some stuff January, February and March. Then in April we went into the studio. When I say that, it's not like we said “here's the writing period, let's get together and start writing”. It was really sporadic. Planning any 'Last In Line' event is a challenge of scheduling.
Glenn: I can imagine.
Phil: We said, “We've got three days here, 2 days there and 4 days here”. That's what we would do. We would get together during those days and get down to work and write. The recording was similar as well. We went in for short bursts of time to get everything recorded. It wasn't until we got to the depths of vocals, overdubs and mixes that it became a little bit more contiguous. at least for Andrew (Freeman), myself and Chris Collier who was the Engineer that mixed the record. Prior to that it was done in bits and pieces. The idea of going in and recording an album over six weeks in the studio is quite rare these days. (Laughs)
Glenn: It's the fact that you've got Vivian (Campbell) who's in Def Leppard and is all over the World with those guys, so you've got to wait while he is free. You do 'Raiding The Rock Vault' at times and then you've got Vinny (Appice) doing the stuff with his brother (Carmine Appice) and whatever else. He's always busy that guy, so to get you guys together must be hard at times?
Phil: Yeah! The real schedule that we always have to work around is always the Def Leppard schedule. Everything else is somewhat flexible. The 'Raiding The Rock Vault' stuff that I do, I don't do it that regularly. I literally will say, “Okay, well I've got a couple of weeks off here, three or four weeks off there” I’ll see who's there and see who I fancy playing with. Then I'll go in and do a week here or there. It's very flexible. I also do a lot of other work outside. I do a lot of writing, a lot of production and what have you... all that is flexible too. That applies to all of us but what we can't really mess around with is the Leppard schedule. They're a huge organisation as well as obviously being a very big band. They are scheduled well, well in advance. So, we first have to know what Vivian’s schedule looks like. Having said that, I really take my hat off to Vivian because he really is a trooper. He'll finish doing a run of shows, walk offstage and get into a not so luxurious van and drive long distances to play with us. (I laugh) The creature comforts are probably a little bit lower than Def Leppard's standards, I'm sure.
Glenn: To go from massive shows, playing to thousands and thousands to playing a club level show, it's probably more intimate for him as well?
Phil: Yeah I think if you ask a whole bunch of musicians, you'll probably find that most get a certain satisfaction or gratification from playing small or club shows over the big shows. Speaking from my own experience as well, big shows can be very impersonal. You get on stage, you do what it is that you do on stage. The crowd's out there but you're not really connected with them. You might see the first two or three rows but beyond that you can't see anything. There's bright lights and you don't even know if there's anyone out there or not. It's just dark. When you play a club, you are right there in the middle of a club. People are right there with you. There's an excitement that comes from that.
I am not saying one's better than the other but from Vivian’s perspective, he gets a chance to do both and that's great; if you get tired of doing the big shows and think, 'It would really be fun to do some club shows', we go out and do some club shows. Once Viv finishes driving around in the less than ideal types of conditions, he gets to back to the luxury!
Glenn: I guess it's a like a cycle for you because when have been working with big acts like Ozzy Osbourne, Vince Neil or such guys, playing massive places then you go to the 'Last In Line' playing small spots?
Phil: Yes. And you know, that's how it all starts anyway. It all starts with the small shows and the club shows. There's something really fantastic that needs to be said for that. My attitude towards it isn't a comparative attitude. My attitude is to enjoy what I am doing. I love it. I hope that one day 'Last In Line' become huge. We have the ability to do those big shows but once we do, the opportunity to play the smaller club shows may become very nostalgic memories. I've always believed you have to enjoy what you are doing today no matter what. I have fun doing it – I really do. It's terrific.
Glenn: When I met you at NAMM, I was saying how much I enjoyed the Sheffield show because it was intimate. It was great to see you guys close like that when you were at the Corporation.
Phil: Yeah! Yeah it is fun!
Phil: It's all good stuff.
Glenn: Have you got certain shows that you are really looking forward to in the future?
Phil: Yes. Download (Laughs)
Glenn: It goes without saying that one.
Phil: Last time I played that was in 1986.
Glenn: With Ozzy?
Phil: Yeah! We headlined it with Ozzy. It was 'Ultimate Sin'.
Phil: Funnily enough, the band that was opening for us was Def Leppard. It's funny how things change. So this time we are going to be opening for them. Far, far lower on the bill than they happened to be on our bill but none the less. That's something that's going to be very exciting and I think it's a great opportunity for 'Last In Line'. I think it's going to be good for the band. But the other show I am looking forward to is the only other show we are doing in England at that time which is the O2 in Islington. That'll be a crazy night, I'm sure.
Glenn: Yeah. Are any full UK Tour dates planned in the future or can you not talk about them at the moment?
Phil: Well we can talk about it. We just don't have any at the moment. Again, it's a scheduling thing. We were very fortunate over the last couple of years to have had a couple of good runs in the UK . We did some shows with Saxon. We went across Europe with them. We did our own shows as well. We had the time to do it. We are looking for that window at the moment. Then it comes down to our Agent who is also our Manager, Steve Strange to put together some shows. As soon as he does that we are very, very eager to get back over there and to see ourselves playing in Europe again.
Glenn: Yeah. Let's hope it's a bit warmer as well when you come across here.
Phil: No I'm not counting on that. Not that I'm becoming cynical or anything in my old age but I doubt it. It'll probably be pissing it down with rain and there'll be mud everywhere.
Glenn: Yeah like today!
Phil: We had a fair amount last year with that date in Wales (Hard Rock Hell). It was literally two feet of mud. That was for three days. After a certain point in time it was, 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em', you know?
Glenn: Yeah. Get muddy as well. Wet as well. What things did you enjoy about being at NAMM?
Phil: There are two or three different aspects to it. I very much enjoy any opportunities I have to perform there. Over the last several years I have either been involved in either or both of the Bonzo Bash and the Randy Rhoads Remembered Shows. Those are great. We have a lot of fun with it. It's a good opportunity to catch up with people who come from all over the country. The Bonzo Bash is cool because we get to play with many, many different drummers – there are usually around 25 who each get to play a different Zeppelin song.
Glenn: I saw it last year. That was great.
Phil: You did?
Phil: Yeah it's great. One of the most amazing things from my perspective is I'm playing pretty much with the same band and it's the same kit. You only change drummers. It really does illustrate just how different drummers are, each drummer to the next, in styles. To me, that's fascinating. The idea that everybody is going to come and play a song, get the notes right and play them in the right order and each is going to sound identical is so far from it.
Glenn: It won't happen will it? Everyone is so different.
Phil: Yeah. Some guys put a different spin on it and it's remarkable. I love that - it’s a very personal insight that I like to share. Same thing with 'Randy Rhoads Remembered', only with guitar players. Usually the band is pretty much the same. That's fun but from the work perspective at NAMM, I have to go and do bits and pieces for some of the companies who help me do what I do. There are many people with whom I have had relationships for over two decades. It's always nice to see them as well. There's a social aspect to it and opportunity to meet people. It's a really great melting pot of everybody coming together. I love meeting people – whether it's other musicians, fans or people that are involved in the equipment business. It would be something I would miss if I didn't show up one year. Even if it's only for one or two days of the four. It also serves as a bit of a barometer of what's going on in the music business.
There were times when... particularly around 2009 after the big financial recession that we had here. You could really see it. You could see the show was scaled down. You could see that there was a level of depression in the business. People weren't really doing anything new. Musicians will play no matter rain or shine. That's what we do. We love doing it. There's always going to be that presence there and hopefully it kind of cuts through and transcends those times. You can tell a lot of what is going on in the rest of the world by going to a NAMM Show!
Glenn: How did you get involved in Lectrosonics originally?
Phil: Well that's a complicated story. I have a company that is involved in professional audio. It started quite by accident when DigiDesign who owned ProTools at the time had asked me to become an ambassador for them. They knew who I was and they offered to train me. I was a budding producer at the time. I was having a hard time breaking into the business – it was very closed-shop. I believed correctly that the future was going to be in non-linear digital technology, through DAW's or whatever you want to call them, in which Pro-Tools is one of the leaders. I figured that if I knew Pro-Tools, that would help me get into production.
They offered to train me, with the condition that I would help turn on some of my peers onto this new way of recording. This was about 1998. I did this and I ended up being responsible for probably about half of the ProTools systems that got sold in Los Angeles at the time. My deal with DigiDesign was pretty simple. They said, “Hey, if people become interested in purchasing our products, we'll put you in touch with a local dealer and they'll take care of that. We're sure you can financially work something out with them so that they compensate you in some sort of form or fashion.
Phil: That turned into a very lucrative business. Then at a certain point in time, I pretty much started my own company because I didn't enjoy having much to do with the retail world. I just really preferred to be involved in creative discussions with people. I was talking to lots and lots of producers, lots of people in our industry. A lot of brainstorming of how to improve this or that, of how to move forward with it. The system was not a stable one at that time. It was fraught with technological challenges, problems and what have you.
Cut forward many years, I trimmed down on that business. I cut a lot of it out but I ended up maintaining a few relationships with certain companies, and I still do a lot of work for them. Lectrosonics is one of those. I knew Lectrosonics from my background in broadcast and film production where they really are the absolute industry standards. Ninety-five percent of the market is Lectrosonics. I then asked myself, “why is this company not in music, because we have other companies that make products for music and we've come to learn and accept a standard which is nowhere close to the high standard of Lectrosonics enjoyed in film and broadcast?”.
When I had this discussion with them, they suggested to me, “Do you want to be an ambassador for us? Can you help us with this?”. We started to explore music and I work with them very closely. That's one of the companies with whom I love to work. I also work with other companies, I work with Cedar Audio – companies such as that who have very eclectic and unique products. I have a huge database of professionals that call me up all the time. They say, “Hey, we're having a challenge with audio, can you help us with this? What do you think we should do?” It's become more of a consulting business. In this day and age, if you are a musician you have to have a couple of other things that you can go to. I don't really know too many people that just do one thing. Andy does a lot of graphics, Vinny, he's certified for computers. He's really a genius with computers. Everybody has something they do. It's like having a paid hobby that one can do during the slower times.
Glenn: A lot of people don't realise that. They assume that you make all the money from being on stage or from records. It doesn't work like that because the bottom dropped out of the recording business and you can't be on tour every single day can you? You've got to have another way of bringing the cash in!
Phil: Yeah. I could talk to you for hours about this because I think I'm quite knowledgable about it. I do think that part of being successful as a musician is good management... I don't mean a manager, I mean good personal financial management and maintenance of your own situation. It's one of those things where Rome is never built in a day. You have to, on a daily basis, make good decisions. There are times where you are going to make a lot of money and there are times where you are not going to make as much money for the very reasons you just said.
You've not been on tour for a while, you might not be selling anything… there are macro-economic considerations when all of a sudden, people don't really make any money from selling records anymore. At one time they did. Those things come into play. You have to budget. You have to find ways to bolster your income and you have to find ways to build savings and invest to live your life in a way that you enjoy.
I think at some point you have an end game as well but that's another story. With these kinds of things, people who are smart are able to continue doing what they love doing without having to assume too much pressure. One of the worst things I've seen in this business are people who might be very, very frustrated because they want to be doing some kind of work or want to be getting on with something but they can't.
even contact people.They are living paycheck to paycheck; they just don't have the money or they're waiting on a check to arrive. It's just a terrible state to be in and it's tragic. It's sad. You find people having to liquidate equipment and then buy it back again at a later stage. It's all down to not having a great budget or having an effective plan.
Glenn: You've got to look into the future more.
Phil: I almost started writing a book about it. I think it would be wonderful to help people that way. These days though there are so many resources available on the internet, I don't want to say I have lost interest in the book but it would be too time consuming right now for me. At some point it might still be great if there was some kind of guide that could help; Here are some pointers to help you become a successful person in the arts field and help you deal with the ups and downs.
Glenn: Yeah. I read that people can hire you for doing bass work as well through the internet which is a good thing.
Phil: Yeah. I mean, all of these things have changed. The one little detail that I overlooked when I was first approached by DigiDesign was I thought, 'Great! If I have skills in ProTools that's going to give me an 'In' to the Production World'. What I missed was that Pro-Tools became so affordable that everybody had it in their studio. What applied to me was going to apply to everyone. Today everybody has ProTools in their studio like everybody has a coffee machine. I can get sessions from anywhere in the world. I can do them, I can record them.
Same thing for drummers, same thing for guitar players. They can supplement their income and it can be part of their business. Now all of a sudden you can have an online business where you do sessions for people. Who would have thought something like that? As a kid I could be writing songs, I could contact some guy in some big band and at least ask them and get a response. “Hey would you play on my track?”, even if the response was “No”. At one time you couldn't even contact people.
Glenn: Exactly. How it's changed!
Glenn: Twenty years ago when it came to doing interviews or covering shows it was a nightmare to do anything like that. It was all about writing to people by letter and hoping the Royal Mail gets it to the right place and then you hope you'll get a reply a few months later. But now it's instantaneous – it's brilliant in that respect. I think the only thing the internet has messed up is the music side of things for recording, as in albums and songs in general. People can get music for free on the Internet and then you guys are losing thousands or millions of pounds through it. It's crazy.
Phil: Well I'm always somebody who tries to find the silver lining in the clouds. I know that a lot of people have been complaining about the way that the record industry has become. But big advances were paid to make records, then it was recouped and bands never saw any money. The money was always taken away and they never ended up with anything. They were putting albums out, selling platinum and then they went on tour for a year and a half, they came back and rubbed their hands together only to find out they still owed $500,000. I remember those days. It's very easy for people to say, “The Internet Sucks – Now we can't sell records”. But back then it was pretty bad as well. Now what I see has happened is that the role of the recorded product has changed somewhat. Its gone from being an actual end product to a marketing device. The actual thing we used to sell was the record. Right?
Phil: You used to do everything possible to make people buy the record. You used to give away some t-shirts, some headbands, some lighters. People came to the concerts so that they would go out to buy the record. Now guess what, now what we do is give them the record, we give them the music so that they come to the show, buy a ticket and then they buy the T-Shirt, the headband and the lighter. We're still selling stuff but the record itself has become a marketing product for the live show and merchandise. It's become all about the lighter, headband and t-shirt. If you want to look at it from a purist standpoint, it's all come back down to the live experience hasn't it?
Glenn: Yeah. Which in a way is a good thing because it makes people get up off their arse and check things out.
Phil: Yeah. Look where it all started! The one thing you cannot replicate and duplicate on the internet is the live show. You just can't do it. Therefore, that in itself has become a good thing. I'm just being an optimist here and looking at the positives. The other positive that has happened is that we control a lot more of the sales. We make a lot more from any record sales. Back then, we were lucky to make a dollar per album. Then a lot of that had to go to other people. Well if we can make, say $4 an album, I'm just pulling a number out of thin air, but you only have to sell a quarter as many albums right?
Phil: So there are definitely some good things to be (had) and to not be afraid of (the internet). There are new ways to monetise this industry.
Glenn: The good thing as you've said is the fact you aren't going to owe the record company half a million dollars by the end of it are you? The money you've put into it, you've got it back.
Phil: The range of advances I've seen recently are typically in the region of between $40,000 and $80,000.
Phil: That's not a big sum, and pretty easy for a label to recoup. You don't have to sell too many records to do so.
Phil: If you get a $20,000 advance. There are certain labels in the world without getting specific who will say to musicians, “Hey, do you want to put a record project together for $20,000?” Some of these guys will say, “Okay, we'll get together in a room for two days, we'll knock up some songs, we'll record it very, very fast, put it together. We'll take the $20,000 and use it to do so and the label will recoup almost instantly and we'll actually end up being able to make some money out of the project.
Glenn: It makes sense.
Phil: There are a lot of these projects cropping up left, right and centre. Groups of bands made up of members of other bands.
Glenn: I guess as well because you don't have to get everyone in the room at the same time. The internet has made it easier to do things like that I think.
Phil: Yeah and from the positive point of view, how cool is that? You get four guys from different bands to get together to do a cool project, like a vanity project or whatever; get it out there and make it accessible for everybody.
Phil: From a music fan’s point of view, I would have loved to have heard albums, growing up, that would be projects of different artists with other people. It would have been really cool – the way the sixties were originating things.
Glenn: Like get members of The Who and The Stones together or members of The Jeff Beck Group and many others in one project. It would have been incredible wouldn't it?
Phil: Yeah! Oh yeah! I'd pay a lot to hear that stuff!
Glenn: Well they could still do it but it would cost the record companies a fortune to do it. It would be more than $20,000 or something but there you go. (Phil laughs) Do you still have plans to do any more solo albums because you've got some out on the Favored Nations label (Founded by Steve Vai & Ray Scherr) or are you so encompassed by what you are doing right now that that's way on the back-burner?
Phil: It is somewhat on the back-burner. I am trying to do some more solo material. Most of the solo stuff that I write has more of a commercial leaning. To be honest with you, it's been quite successful in film and TV. I've never thought of doing solo things with the expectation that I'm going to go out there and do huge world tours or anything. Its always really been to get some of those songs down, to have some fun with them, put them out and see if they can get some success in placement. I'm very happy with that. I'll do some local shows, for example I'll do some local gigs and that'll just be fun. That's really it. The real band for me is what I do with 'Last In Line’.
Glenn: When you have been approached to work with certain artists in the business that have got a crazy reputation for whatever reason like Ozzy Osbourne or Vince Neil for example, have you let that bother you or have you simply gone in there and seen how it goes from face-value thereon?
Phil: Well we're all a bunch of lunatics. That goes without saying. I'm not expecting anything very 9 to 5 or run of the mill. But no, I don't go in there with any pre-conceptions. I always go in there with a positive attitude all of the time. Vince for example, the reason we worked together is because we've been friends since the very, very early 80's. Even during the time I was with Ozzy and all of that, we socialised together and hung out together. We were pretty tight friends. When that time came round that he had left Motley Crue, I got a call – a conference call with three people on the line.
There was Vince, there was his Manager, Bruce Bird and Jack Blades. They said, “Hey, you need to help Vince out here – he wants to put a band together, he's out of Motley Crue, you're his friend, we were talking about you and what are you doing?” So that's why that happened. I go in and I work with people. Whatever happens, happens. Sometimes it's been really good. On occasions worse things happened – shit happens!
Glenn: It does. That's life isn't it. Not everything is hunky dory all the time. Sometimes it is. But you know, for how long? You know? Such is life and human beings.
Phil: The idea is to create music. To create things – to continue making music. When one situation comes to a close, I don't see that as anything more than the beginning of the next situation. I have to look at it that way.
Glenn: That's a great positive outlook to have as well. You don't know what door is going to open next or what is around the next corner do you?
Phil: Well that's what's really great about the music business. That element of suspense. What's coming next? One of the things, I don't know if dark is the right word, but a different perspective... I was very close friends with Randy Castillo, Rest In Peace – one of my, if not my closest friends for many, many years – decades in fact.
I remember he had one regret that he share with me. He said, “You know, I played with Ozzy all of this time but when you left, you went and played with all these different artists, you did all these different things”. He said, “Sometimes I wish I'd have done something.. done some more diverse stuff.” I always remembered that. I tell people all the time. I'll say, “Make sure you do things that are diverse. Actually put yourself into stuff that is different so you can experience it”. It's all music.
Glenn: That's what I noticed about stuff that you do. Such as when you've worked with guys like Johnny Hallyday. That's just so different to 'Last In Line' or Ozzy Osbourne etc. It just proves it. Is it due to the fact that it's music; it's playing bass and you just get into it because it is what it is?
Phil: Yeah! I knew who Johnny Hallyday was and I knew he was a legend. It would be like Elvis. The guy who had a career that spanned through the 50's, 60's 70's, the 80's and the 90's in my case. He had worked with unbelievable musicians over his history. I don't know if you know some of the details but Hendrix, when he first came over to Europe, the first thing he ever recorded was with Johnny Hallyday with a version of 'Hey Joe' that was originally in French.
Phil: Go figure that. Mick Jones played with him for eight years. When Johnny did his first two records he used Bill Black and Scotty Moore who were Elvis's rhythm section. He played with a ton of people so I knew who he was. The circumstances in which I got involved with that were through Chris Kimsey who produced 10 of The Rolling Stones albums.
I was in with that crowd and I knew him through various people in that world. The band that was put together when we played was Ian Wallace who was the drummer in King Crimson, Robin Le Mesurier of Rod Stewart's band, Phil Palmer who at time of playing was with (Eric) Clapton, Jim Fry from Deacon Blue, Tim Morph who played with The Bee Gees for years. It wasn't a really shoddy band by any wears of the imagination. You know?
Glenn: (I laugh) Yeah!
Phil: This was really a great thing. For me it was like, 'Wow, I get to play with these guys'. We went out and played. I can tell you this: sometimes I would listen to what was going on on stage or in the room and think to myself, 'You know, this sounds like a Faces album'. I mean, this is really the kind of stuff I would pay to listen to and I'm actually part of this!’ I get chills thinking about it because the musical precision of that band was insane. It was really an honour and a pleasure to play that kind of material. It didn't matter that I wasn't playing heavy music. I was playing something that was really, really exciting.
Glenn: Yeah. One of my friends, French Fred, funnily enough from Paris - when I told him I was going to be interviewing you he was like, “Oh Wow!” because you were from Johnny Hallyday's band. He was buzzing because I was going to have a chat with you.
Phil: Well that's great. We did four albums and five tours. One of the albums... we did a couple of live albums of course... but one of the studio albums was an album called 'Lorada'. It was in French. We also did an English album called 'Rough Town'. Musically, I listen to the ‘Lorada’ album sometimes without focussing on the French lyrics and the music is really tremendous. It's an album I'm very proud of. I collaborated on arranging all the songs and music, we were in the studio working on it. We literally focussed on every part of that album and it came out great. It's a great honour to find yourself in that kind of position to be able to play on these kinds of recordings. It's been equally diverse with me playing with Billy Idol for example when I did 'Charmed Life'. Most people don't really understand why I went to play with Billy after Ozzy.
Glenn: Why did you play with Billy Idol?
Phil: Honestly what it was, was that I grew up in Maida Vale in London I grew up in the 70's. I was born in the 60's and we lived there until the early 70's. At that time, the bands of that area were ‘Kilburn and The Highroads’ and bands such as 'Chelsea' and 'London SS'. The music of my generation and of kids of my age was developing into punk. I had my old influences. While I loved Classic Rock, I loved Rockabilly and early 50's American Americana Rock as well. I loved all of those things but it was hard not to get caught up in the punk excitement with all my friends. We actually went to see The Sex Pistols at the London Polytechnic. A legendary gig and I think it was about 1975. Those aforementioned bands ended up becoming Generation X, The Clash and all of that. All based around Notting Hill Gate, Maida Vale – all of those areas.
While I was a budding musician there was this drummer playing in an early version of 'Chelsea' who then went on to play with Generation X and Adam Ant and ended up in The UK Subs. He loved the way I played and was always trying to get me into those bands. But I was about three or four years too late for that party. I was about three or four years younger than all of those people. It never happened. Anyway, going forward when Billy asked me to work on his new band and record, this was a way for me to revisit and to actually address some of those early influences that I never really participated in growing up in London. That's why I did it. No-one in America will ever understand that. They weren't part of that crowd. But, further to my point, I think you have to play different styles to really appreciate what it's like to have an overview of the music business. You can't go out eating fish and chips every night, you have to go to other restaurants.
Glenn: Oh yeah! (I say agreeingly) You've got your Italians, your Indians and whatever else. It gets boring otherwise. It becomes a routine and that's dull. (We laugh)
Phil: Right. A variety. Then what happens is this really weird thing because then you start bringing stuff in – you experience something over here and then you bring it into another band. I think that's very evident on this Last In Line 'II' album. If you put this next to 'Heavy Crown' , you'll hear what the difference is, all things remaining the same apart from Jimmy Bain and myself. I brought in a lot of ideas, structure and what have you that actually had its roots probably in English, very British 70's music. Whether it's Punk or it's Post-Punk which I really liked - I loved bands like Killing Joke. I always bring things like that, those kind of flavors speak to me.
Glenn: I totally get it about the Americans not getting it since they associate you with Classic Rock, Heavy Rock and Heavy Metal as well.
Phil: I say that with great respect to Americans. They just didn't grow up in the same location that I grew up in.
Glenn: Yeah it makes sense.
Phil: We were surrounded by all the bands I mentioned before. Bands like The Saints – this whole punk thing and reggae too, but honestly, by 1977 it was all said and done. That's when punk first started to take off in America. It was pretty much done in Britain by that point.
Phil: It's a geographical thing and it's not a criticism or anything.